Mysteries, Chemtrails, Aerosols :: Mysterious NZ

[smashdracs]

Took heaps of pics but busy right now discussing it and waiting for the other witness to arrive at my house...

It was a trail being sprayed overhead by a jet that wasnt on any known flight path.

Will continue this thread and provide photos and an accurate account soon...

The time it happened was just before 8pm.

[smashdracs]

I am going to draw the path the jet was flying on onto my printed out flight vector map, I have figured out the exact path it was flying on.

The jet was silver in colour to the naked eye and was moving fast in a NE direction across the Southern end of Wellington harbour.

It "switched" the trail on just over Marlborough and "switched it off" just over the harbour. I ran from my backyard to the front to watch him fly away but he had completely dissapeared from view, there were no clouds for it to fly behind. This was perplexing as he was a very jet and should have still been clearly visible, that was a mystery.

Anyway heres a couple of cropped images of the jet...

[smashdracs]

This last pic shows where he switched of and sped away, it was straight after taking this pic that I ran around the house to the front to watch him fly away and it was gone!

[steve clougher]

twin-engined turbo-prop by the looks, smashdracs

[smashdracs]

I have plotted its flight path onto the flight vector map, it is the blue line drawn in biro with the arrows indicating the direction it was flying.

[smashdracs]

Im am wondering what the black things are either side of the engines, you can see them in this pic...




It was moving way to fast be a prop driven plane, it seemed to be moving faster than the usual planes we see here all the time

[smashdracs]

I just realised the date is set wrong on my camera duh!

The time is correct though, 7.51pm 25th of Jan 08.

[smashdracs]

[steve clougher]

what about noise? most of the planes around town are either climbing, descending or doing circuits in a holding pattern, all slower than normal flight

a jet-prop can skid along pretty slippery, straight and level , on full throttle

it looks totally like the new generation of small commuter planes, of various makes and sizes, that we see all the time in regional airports

info4 may be able to identify it positively?

the only jets i know, with unswept mainplanes, are the little executives

if it was a real aeroplane, of the type it appears to be, at full throttle, i think it should have been very loud..........???

[smashdracs]

I didnt hear any noise, and do turbo props leave trails?

[steve clougher]

well, i reckon they do, but they generally fly a lot lower than jets, so you don't see contrails out of them so often..........the ones that go past here, generally make much more noise than the jets. ..........my wife used to fly in them regularly, and says the standard altitude was 17,000 ft..........your one would seem to be around half that height ?

what power zoom do you have ?

so, if you didn't notice noise, the plane is lowish and fast, you have a genuine anomaly........also the vector, (nice to see the flight vector map in use) , and the origin, in the region of Blenheim/Waihopai

those dark bars under the wings are a question, too

[smashdracs]

I was using a 17-85mm lens set at 85mm for the closest views of the jet/plane (what the hell was it?). The pics posted above were further zoomed in on my PC and then cropped.

The trail persisted for as long as it stayed within view which was about 40 mins before it drifted to far south to see from my yard.

The whole thing appeared unusual, the speed of the craft was fast, and it just vanished very soon after the trail switched off.

The black bars or whatever they are definately strike me as odd. I wish I could post all the pics but it isnt practical...

[Hector]

I disagree with the flight path that smashdracs posted above.

I saw this contrail from Heretaunga (Upper Hutt) about 8pm last night. At the horizon, it was southwest from here. The highest point of the contrail where it ended, was about 30 degrees above the horizon and to the west of where it met the horizon. The angle off vertical was 15 to 20 degrees to the right.

I haven't done any calculations, but qualitatively, this means that the flight path was towards north-northeast, rather than east-northeast as smashdracs suggests.

If that flight path (north-northeast from somewhere southwest of Upper Hutt) is correct, then I think that plane was on the track with Route Designator "H426" between the Cape Campbell NDB and the Titahi Bay NDB (ENROUTE CHART, Effective: 23 Nov 2006, AIP NEW ZEALAND).

This is not a commonly used track, but contrails have been reported on it before. See https://www.mysteriousnewzealand.co.nz/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4845 and https://www.mysteriousnewzealand.co.nz/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4849

Something else, possibly related; I wonder if the atmospheric conditions were suitable for contrails... http://www.freewebs.com/diagnosis1contrails/Emailed/NZPP_20080125_midday_hb.PNG

Interesting.

[steve clougher]

if someone from bloody miles away, told me i was 45 degrees out in my assessment of a bearing, of an object which went directly over my head, and contradicted me in public, when he had no way of knowing even if we were talking about the same object, i'd ignore him

[Hector]

And so would I!

However, I didn't contradict smashdracs; I disagreed with the flight path direction that he posted.

I think we were observing the same object - same part of the sky, same time.

I reported what I saw, and drew a conclusion after looking at the CAA Enroute Chart.

[smashdracs]

Hector said

[Hector]

OK, you may very well be correct. I reported what I saw, and I have no photos of it. My observation time was, as I said, about 8pm; it could have been a quarter hour either way.

[smashdracs]

We will have to discount what you have said in light of the fact your not sure within a half hour space of time exactly what time it was you observed it and that you didnt even photograph it.

[Hector]

OK, fair enough. Discount it. No problem.

What are your thoughts about the atmospheric conditions? Given that the measurements were made at midday near Paraparaumu, you probably have to discount that on similar grounds. The situation remains though, that atmospheric conditions indicated contrails in the vicinity of central New Zealand st some stage that day... persistent contrails at that.

[smashdracs]

Over the time you have posted them I have seen that the data can sometimes not be reliable with predicting persistant contrails one way or the other, so certainly a sounding taken at midday isnt probably going to tell us much about the conditions 8 hours later. Also of note was the lack of persistant contrail activity observed over Wellington that day. I did see what appeared to be some drift from over the west but not much at all. I wasnt watching the sky for the whole day but did frequently check it.

[secondfield]

Yep, Im fairly certain that was the only trail of the day!. I always check the sky frequently.

Very stark.

Definite start and end.

I was in the carpark of the new world by the the marina and noticed it when a couple shopping were standing there pointing at it and speculating.

I got some film footage on my cellphone of it. That plane looks suspect, will try to get a positive ID on it from someone in the industry I have made acquaintance with.

Good work smash.

[smashdracs]

This has been bugging me and Hector was right to call me out on the given sighted flight path.
I have been out again tonight and have done a better analysis of my photos and the direction I was facing when taking them, I then got to a good vantage point from my front yard and relined my map and compass (the compass is suspect) but I think I got it lined up well enough.
I am willing to concede that my initial sketch of the flight path of the jet was to far eastward. I still get it flying right of the Hutt but because I lost sight of it I have no idea if he changed course after flying over Wellington which would result in it possibly cruising along a known flight path

like what you can see in the following photo looking roughly north of Wellington from above Oriental Bay across the harbour.



and here is another in which a jet appears to make a similar manouvre



I still beleive the jet was heading eastward but I am now certain it wasnt as hard left as I first determined.
I guess I should say well done Hector.

I still would like to get an ID on the jet as it appeared odd to the naked eye and also in the photos, also I wonder why no other trails were sighted that day when the upper atmospheric conditions were conducive to that?

I am certain that jet wasnt following a mapped flight path when it flew overhead but I now believe it was less wildly of course than I first stated and it could have easily swung into a proper flight path very shortly after I lost sight of it.

[info4]

[secondfield]

Well my friend at ATC had this to say....

"Had a look at the photos Brendon .. an unusual situation, as the aircraft definitely looks like a Mount Cook Airlines ATR72 aircraft. Air Nelson fly a Dash 8 airliner that looks similar, but the length of the fuselage, the straight wing with engine nacelles showing under the wing, and the high tail plane ties in with the dimensions/profile of an ATR. It is not a jet of any sort that I know, and it is definitely leaving a trail .. would have been overflying WN, but the direction of estimated flight as shown on the map does not tie in with any known airline route.Sometimes, if the ambient air conditions are right, jet-prop aircraft will leave a fuel/exhast vapour trail behind them, especially after taking off, but I have never seen what is in the photo. Jet-prop aircraft cruise at 300mph and can appear as fast as a jet sometimes, especially if they are at a lower altitude. The unusual shadows on the wings, esp the right hand one, do not appear to tie in with the sun angle, so can't really help much further Brendon .. would have been interesting to see it personally, as the aircraft does not appear to be too high in the sky, unless the camera is a real beaut !! If I saw it with the mark 1 eyeball I would have put it at about 12,000ft. I am next at work on Tuesday, so will check to see if there is any scheduled flight WN- Napier/Gisborne that may fit, as such a departure may well take off at WN heading south then make a climbing turn to intercept track over Wainuiomata way, would still be unusual though, and if it was a CH-NR/GS flight it would be flying to the east of WN more or less overhead Lake Wairarapa. ...... will let you know ... cheers ..

Personally, I think he got his atr mixed up with the Dash 8. See how much the dash 8's engine ovehangs the rear edge of the wing (ggogle dash 8 aircraft).

He added to me yesterday....

(wgtn fri 25th 7.51pm S-N).

"if this one was a true south to north then it would most probably be an overflight CH- AA as it would be too late for a RO or HN flight ... we close watch at 0820. I replied re the type of aircraft that I thought it was in my previoue email to you today Brendon .. hope it was of some help .. the map that guy drew made no sense to me but I will check the flights on Tuesday. Don't know about the black marks on the wing .. for them to be seen the aircraft must have been below jet altitudes, and none of Mt Cook or Air Nelson have distinctive black marking on the underside of their wings as such. could have neen a shadow from the prop discs, but ... !!!

The max ceiling for a dash 8 is 25,000 ft, (fm the web) not sure what cruise altitude is.

So the jury's still out on this one... Its interesting to note that ATC can't usually access previous flight data unless there has been a safety breach of some sort which instigates an investigation.

Its also interesting to note that any aircraft without a transponder fitted would not furnish a radar return on CAA (airways corp) radar systems.

Perhaps the next step would be for someone to query mt cook airlines or nelson air re flights on that day. I had a look at respective websites (air nz own air nelson). But no details. Just the usual booking screen. Ill leave that one to someone else.

An ex air new zealand pilot with 30 years flying experience I spoke to saturday ventured to say if that was a jet aircraft then it was of a very specilised 'high altitude' type.

The absence of swept wings and large engines point to this.

At first glance the U2 fitted with EW (electronic warfare) pods or external fuel tanks looks a bit like that pic. But the wings seem to taper too much toward the end on a U2. It seems much narrower and probably would'nt be as visible during daylight. Just my 2 cents worth. Cheers,

[smashdracs]

Oh well, I give up on this one. If it was really flying low the trail is inexplicable and would have to have been sprayed (a chemtrail) in my opinion.
If it was flying high it could just be a persistant contrail in which case the jet is a definate mystery... :roll:

Cant win on this one I guess. The good news is I have a big telephoto lens arriving in 3 days, next time I see one of these fly over I will be able to get a good close shot.

[steve clougher]

smashdracs, i love your new photo-sigil

i've learned, the Saabs and suchlike turboprops do cruise at 14-17 thousand feet

they can get up to 26000 but they don't , because they're not fitted with drop-down oxygen masks

[secondfield]

Well, Looks like we got this one nailed.... And it seems its a case of dont panic mr Mannering...

From my friend at ATC...

for Brendon re the sighting over WN on 25 Jan 08 ... this was a > friday and the only scheduled flight at that time in the area would have > been an Air Link Dash 8 aircraft, which has a similar underneath profile > to an ATR72 (Mt Cook aircraft) It was a CH-NR flight, and would be > overflying WN between 19,000 and 21,000 feet at approximately 7:50pm. It > would normally track via overhead downtown WN , but could have possibly > been slightly east of that on 25 Jan. I checked with Air Nelson re the > strange markings on the wings outboard of the engines, and their engineers > advised that none of their aircraft have those stripes as in the photo, so > that is a bit of a mystery .. could be a trick of the light but it didn't > really look like that to me. However it would have been the only aircraft > in the sky at that time, so who knows !!!!

Well, I guess its safe to say it more than likely was an air link dash 8, when i first looked at the aircraft on a web search it came up with this one the SAAB 340... they were replaced by the dash 8's. Thats why I mistook the engine extensions to be off another aircraft type (ATR).See below for the SAAB.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2356/2256555613_074be3972a_o.jpg

The Dash 8 Looks like this...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2328/2257352728_6edd1c9f3c_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2273/2257352780_d211a2dbfb_o.jpg

Now thats more like it eh! :P

So off ya'll go and see if there are any spray appendages or extra tanks on that one... .. O God, but what about those stripe's under the wings!!?... :shock:

Yeah...

[Hector]

Things are starting to clear up for a number of reasons.
The Air Link scheduling and traffic information conforms with smashdracs' assessments of the track and the altitude. I am happy to concede that the what-ever-it-was I saw at the same time was not the same cloud/trail that he observed, photographed, described and mapped. Consider it completely discarded from the discussion.

Accepting the altitude of about 20,000 feet, that leaves the question of the trail, and the "markings" on the wings.

The markings outside the engines may be shadows of the nacelles around the flap lowering/raising gear. See the AirFleets.net photo that secondfield referred to.

I have a proposition about the trail which may also be a plausible explanation for other trails observed associated with planes flying lower than what would be expected to be normal contrailing altitude.

The explanation involves supersaturation with respect to ice and the dynamic temperature drop as air passes over a wing in flight. I will have a look at conditions on that day and on the dates of other reports of unmarked white aircraft spraying at low altitude and see if this is a plausible explanation. I will report what I find later.

Meanwhile, I found this excellent publication on exactly this subject - Aircraft Induced Condensation dated September 2007 - very recent. This seems to be PowerPoint presentation (converted to PDF) to accompany a lecture. The notes need some filling out - it is very brief, and some of the concepts require some more explanation. There are some excellent photos - the PDF is worth downloading and printing for a coffee table book - That's what I've done!

There is also a lecture about Cloud Processes and Cloud-Aerosol Interaction which among other things tell s about how rain works.

I will post these again in Links and Information so that they don't get buried here.

[steve clougher]

shadows from nacelles...........perleaeaease, Hector/Ross, don't insult your own intelligence as well as ours, if you can't come up with a reasonably intelligent explanation, with your qualifications and credibility in the academic world, for god's sake keep silent until you do

shadows on nacelles will be assymmetrical at 8pm, unless the plane is flying straight into ythe sun

please , please , don't jam up our space with crap

[smashdracs]

Some pictures I took yesterday at Wellington Airport.



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/2280747814_5da0a3947e_o.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7167305@N04/2279958809/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7167305@N04/2280750048/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7167305@N04/2280750142/