Mysteries, Chemtrails, Aerosols :: Mysterious NZ New Zealand based Discussion Forums The strange & mysterious, archaeological anomalies, modern oddities... Current affairs, health & medical issues, Aerosol Spraying in NZ... ...and general interest: ARCHIVES
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:35 pm Post Subject: You want proof?
I read this site about 2 days before I made a flight between Sydney and Christchurch. I am a first officer for QANTAS and can disprove this chemtrail myth. Flying about 200km's out of the south west coast of the south island i saw a persistant contrail coming from the south of us. About 20 seconds later I heard over the radio 'Jetconnect 4190 traffic is 767 at 11 o'clock descending 19000 feet . please advise you have them in your sight.' This was a very persistant contrail so thats one down.
Two days later i was in Dunedin driving back up to Christchurch. I also saw another persistant contrail ahead of me. This kept on coming and would have been at about 15000 feet and was still contrailing. Through my binoculars I could make out a Koru and a Pacific Wave...hmmm...an Air New Zealand jet. This contrail was visible to Near Geraldine which was about 3.5 hrs away.
As a pilot I also know that there is different atmospheric pressures and tempuratures. A persistant contrail is usaully formed (to my knowledge) when the heat from the engines turns the moisture in the air to ice. If the air is cold enough it will stay around for a long time.
Just one more thing, I have to wonder why they would be doing this spraying 200 km's out to sea, and mainly over towns, not so much cities, and in a country that barely has an air force with a population of only nearly 5 million.
Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 387
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:40 pm Post Subject:
Hi and welcome Kismet,
you will find that we encourage intelligent and informed discussion on this forum and you will find plenty of it here if you search out our archives. If you are indeed a pilot (personally I doubt it - more like a student), you will have a better than average knowledge of condensation trails, the common short lived variety and the less common persistent trails. The latter variety have been seen in the sky since the Spanish Civil War and were indeed a problem for the Allies during the Second World War, as they were a clear indicator to fighter and ground artillery as to the presence and precise location of high flying B17 bombers. If you go here you will find a 1942 NACA report that details this concern and explores remedies:
So yes, yes we know about Persistent trails. We also know that they used to be relatively uncommon and associated with highly specific meteorological conditions. You will find in the above mentioned NACA report details of zones of occurrence where this aspect is detailed in map form for the Northern hemisphere. The report does not give detail for the Southern Hemisphere, however the reciprocal zones can easily be extrapolated from the Northern Hemisphere data. If you do this you will discover that for PTs to appear in say the Far North of New Zealand in any season, at any altitude, would require unusual conditions. Now they are common there at any time of year, even mid summer. Strange wouldn't you say? In the late nineties this anomalous sightings of PTs occurred in many locations around the world to the astonishment of residents who had never seen them before, and to the mystification of atmospheric scientists. The predictive model that these scientists had used for decades (since 1941) suddenly did not work anymore. Although they have since come up with an answer, it is a decidedly dodgy one that has left many in the scientific community highly dissatisfied.
This particular subject is just one of many associated with Chemtrails and I have merely touched on it. I particularly chose it because it seems that you imagine that we label every sighting of a Persistent trail as a Chemtrail. Not so. Although some in the forum are a little loose with their terminology at times, we do tend to know the difference. Chemtrails are associated with certain anomalies. If you are really interested in understanding more about this phenomena yourself, rather than just joining to point out what fools we all are to believe in such stuff, then you will be willing to explore in depth the archives of this forum where you will find much enlightening debate and reports.
just a note i am not actually the pilot, that is a friend that posted that. I dont know if he is a first officer or not, he only started with qantas a year or so ago. But anyway can you give me the facts on what chemtrails are. I dont really understand them.
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Christchurch
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:33 pm Post Subject:
hi there,
please do your homework. there is plenty of research detail on this website to give you several weeks of sleepless nights.
chemtrails are a real phenomenon. the us congress acknowledges the technology. the german parliament now admits.
you can bring evidence to dispute their existence, but for god's sake, do not present the "vapour trails" argument. this has been examined, re-examined, analyzed, re-analyzed, compared, contrasted and summarized to ad infinitum!
here is a post that i did several months ago in response to the very same thing.
enjoy.
-----------------
chemtrails don't exist. they are simply vapour trails from aircraft:
welcome to the forum.
you ask a basic question which deserves a basic answer. these plumes that all of us photograph.. you know the ones.. they're plastered all over this site.. and on hundreds of others all over the world.. these mysterious lines in the sky that go one for a hundred kilometers, laid in geometric patterns, and that spread out up to several kms in width that can eventually form fibrous altocirrus clouds with sometimes anything but natural square shapes.. those lines are just normal contrails from jet exhaust?!
chemtrails vs contrails: a primer.
contrails are water vapor from jet exhaust that form at very cold tempearatures and at high relative humidities. according to the noaa, around minus 45F and greater than 70% humidity. it's similar to when "fog" comes out your breath when it's cold, but moist.. a phenomenon very well known to us cantabrians Smile
i lived some time in the northern central valley in california where somedays it would dip to minus 5C. on days where the humidity was also high, just after a storm, the breath would come out like fog blasts and fall to the ground as freezing fog.. we were all human contrail makers at 5 feet asl (above sea level)! yet, strangely, on some days, for example when a dry northeasterly wind (read this as a canty norwest) blew and the humidities were low, it could be at or below 0C, yet no breath contrails! both conditions need to be prevalent. very low temperatures and high humidity.
ok, so this water vapor condensed at high altitudes on certain days.. what happens to it? well, gravity takes over and the condensation trail drops into warmer altitudes. in addition, the vapor is heated by solar ir and converted back into water droplets. contrails in the lower stratosphere (below 10,000 meters asl) disappear quickly. contrails laid by high flying (generally military aircraft) above 20,000 meters asl tend to linger longer. air temperatures in the stratosphere actually decrease as you move down from 50,000 meters to around 20,000 meters. this inverse temperature law in the stratosphere can make high flying aircraft have longer lasting vapor trails.
to differentiate between contrail and chemtrail, therefore one must look at:
altitude the craft is flying. if you can actually see the plane type, it's in the lower stratosphere (5,000 to 10,000 meters asl)
what is coming out of it? is it bright white vapor trail or a somewhat oily, teal colored plume?
does it persist longer than expected?
does it get bigger over time?
where is the stream coming from? the engines? or vents on the wings, stabilizer, or under the craft?
is it possible for aircraft cruising at the same apparent altitude to have different trails? many have observed this phenomenon whereby one plane produces a whispy contrail, yet the other is laying down a persistent plume or "chemtrail. there are others on forums throughout the world, but here is one in nelson:
contrails exist. chemtrails exist.
the us government and us airforce have acknowledged the existence of chemtrails. in october 2002, us congressman dennis kucinich listed chemtrails in h.r. 2977 as an exotic weapons system. just prior to ratification by the congress, "chemtrails" was deleted from the legislation.
why would the us congress consider water vapor to be an exotic space based weapons system?
chemtrails have been used by the us military since the late 1980s.. in the gulf war and for research all over the oecd. radar ducting naturally occurs over large bodies of water (through ionization) yet can be simulated over coastal areas and land masses by the spraying of barium salts in the troposphere (the lower part of the atmosphere.. from sea level to about 10,000 meters.. where most aircraft, including commercial cruise). a remarkable thing occurs.. rf point to point communication is achievable even over the curvature of the earth! my father is a retired aerospace engineer (specializing in radar) and has confirmed this technology is sound and feasible:
climate change. it's worth about 6.5 billion lives and all the money in the world. in 1997, edward teller, the father of the h-bomb and evil genius who proposed that some parts of the north american coastline be blown up by h-bombs to configure them for commercial and military shipping ports, proposed the addition of "reflective metallic particles" into the atmosphere as a cheap way to mitigate global warming.
in the early 1990s, the hughes aircraft corporation (now raytheon) patented the chemtrail spraying technology for climate modification via the atmospheric distribution of aluminium and other metal oxides from aircraft. read the actual u.s. patent for yourself:
in 2004, wayne hall, from the university of sydney wrote to the european parliament via the magazine spectre about this climate modification nightmare we all face in the next few decades.
also, the atmospheric science program (asp) now home to the "tropospheric AEROSOL program" (remember troposphere.. up to 10,000 meters.. we're not talking stratosphere where normal exhaust "contrails" form) acknowledges the use of tropospheric "AEROSOL" plumes to control and modify global climate change. this is a huge multi-disciplined, multi-departmental research project with such "lightweights" as the us department of energy, nasa, the noaa, the brookhaven national laboratory, the lawrence livermore labs (home of the famous manhattan projects), national science foundation, the epa, and strangely the department of energy's office on BIOLOGICAL and environmental research... hmmm.
narsto is another group chartered by the us executive branch of the us government.. that's right... billbob clinton himself.. in 1995. this one is impressive.. this group melts key private industry with all the government agencies of canada, usa and mexico: department of agriculture, environment canada, epa, nsf, , dupont corporation, eastman kodak company, ford motor company, plus countless others.. a truly new world effort.
ok, so all this is american, or at least north american oriented, right? nope. it gets bigger. the international arm of these climate modifcation projects is called igac. some real lightweights involved here.. all the above including offices in every oecd nation. david lowe of new zealand (niwa) chairs the scientific steering committee... wow.. the talent in our little nation!. we're not all just about rugby folks.. we have some impressive scientists as well.. (i guess we won't mention ernest rutherford... i mustn't digress)..
ok... so let's get this straight... 100s if not 1000s of billions of dollars being spent by the melding of global oecd government and corporate industry to fight global climate change with "water vapor trails!"? radar ducting using water vapor trails! millions of dollars spent to design a welsbach chemtrail sprayer to spray tap water into the atmosphere?
"come on horatio, there are more things in heaven and earth than what is dreamt in your philosophy!"
are there more sinister applications of this technology? some have reported biological pathogens and ethylene dibromide in spiderlike filaments that have fallen to earth after heavy spraying. are there black operations in progress as well as military ones?
well, definitely have a look at the haarp project. no, it's not a conspiracy theory. it's for real. oh, and the military needs an electrically charged atmosphere to maximize this technology:
yes salub, you have to make up your own mind on this subject. yet, we at this forum take this subject seriously. many in this group have taken much time and effort to produce scientifically observable evidence to support the chemtrail hypotheses. i'm sure the administrators will post more information on what this group is all about, but for now, do your homework! research, research and research again.
do contrails exist? yes.
do chemtrails exist: yes.
will you come back on this forum insisting that chemtrails are normal water "condensation" trails? i certainly hope not!
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Christchurch
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:41 pm Post Subject:
yea, multinational geoengineering research labs like to use vapour trails too! yet, these good elitists use aluminium, barium, methyl bromide, and other chemicals to spread on all of us lowly fauna and flora! how thoughtful.
You gave us plenty of proof that such technologys exist, but not a single shread of proof pertaining to deliberate spraying.. I accept that the government may have experimented with such technologys but refuse to believe that the contrails we see in the sky are anything but that - contrails.
Why would the government keep such a beneficial plan secret? And more importantly - Who gave them the authority to do so? You dont think there would have been a whistle blower by now? Im sorry guys but this is nothing short of insanity, which lone nut decided that contrails werent legit? point him out to me so I can call the guys in the white suits.
And furthermore, how the hell does shooting sot into the atmosphere help to curb global warming? Wouldnt that simply increase it? I mean incase you haven't noticed.. cars produce soot.
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Christchurch
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:13 am Post Subject:
of course you could. it's called "disinformation" or more commonly known as "propaganda". that is exactly the point. it makes absolutely no sense. you two obviously missed the point big time here. why on earth would billions of dollars be spent if these trails could simply be said to be "water vapour trail phenomena!" if it was true, then why not just say, "hey, it's water vapour, get over it" the power that be tried this in the initial stage 1999-2001, but most observers were not fooled, especially those in the aviation, meteorological, and associated industries.
the geoengineering angle is all hogwash. it's a ruse. citizens look up.. they get concerned.. they do some research and find out that the governments all over the world have miraculously thrown down their gauntlents and political differences and have agreed in some grand geongineering utopia.. to use spray planes to "STOP GLOBAL WARMING" or "GIVE THE SKY SOME SUNSCREEN" hogwash!@! of course the scientific community knows it's a load of horse manure.. but, joe bloggs feels good now.. those ugly oily streaks.. and all that asthma and filaments dropping.. wow. good. them boys are taking care of us!!! thank god.
