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Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 140
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:53 pm Post Subject: Terror Suspect shot dead at Point Blank Range
[Moved here by Administrator]
Here are some eye witness reports of the fatal shooting last night, of a person in London, suspected of being associated with terrorists.
Quote:
I was on the train when the man was shot. I was so scared. I thought the police were shooting everyone. The man who was shot running for his life - he was screaming too. Mum and everyone in Scotland, I'm ok. I lost my phone on the train.
Fiona Syme, Fife, Scotland
Quote:
I was travelling with a colleague on the Northern Line from Borough to Stockwell, we then attempted to travel through the station in order to join the Victoria line into central London. Upon arriving at the main concourse between the Northern line and the Victoria line I saw a man run from the escalator towards the Northern line train, he was closely followed by several plain clothed officer, all of whom were armed. The last officer called to myself and my colleague to leave the station, we then heard a shout of 'get on the floor', this was closely followed by 5 'cracks', which at the time we assumed to be gun fire. We then ran to the stairs and left the station. The police were in the process of clearing the immediate area outside of the station. The air ambulance then arrived along with many more police vehicles.
Lee Ruston, Rochester, UK
Quote:
I was sitting waiting for a north bound Charing Cross train when a Bank train pulled in. I was sitting next to the platform entrance. The train could not leave because a man was holding a set of doors open directly in front of platform entrance. He appeared to be waiting for someone to come through the entrance. Then several men came running in I saw one man had a semi automatic weapon which he was cradling. They all ran on to the next open carriage door as the first man was still standing in the doorway. Then there were three or four loud popping sounds and smoke then two more shots that I saw. The man firing was shooting a person lying on the floor. Then like everyone else I ran.
Joanne Griffin, London, UK
Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 814
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:11 pm Post Subject:
The guy was shot in the head at point blank range while two officers were sitting on top of him. So he was wearing a winter coat in mid summer and he was running away from the police, refusing to obey - did he really deserve to have his life taken for this!? And five shots in the head at point blank range - what the hell is that about? Is this really acceptable behaviour from any police force in a democratic society?
Given that they had already restrained him when they executed him, I would have thought there should be no justification for such a cold blooded killing. Just watching the news the media is reporting that they couldn't afford to risk taking him alive. For crying out loud, they were sitting on top of him, we has immobile.
This is a very dangerous and sinister development in policing in the UK. :evil:
George Galloway was interviewed by Alex Jones recently:
Quote:
"At the end of the show Alex Jones asked Galloway if he thought an invasion of Iran was on the horizon. Galloway was confident that massively opposed public opinion would stop an attack from taking place, unless a staged terror attack carried out by the military industrial complex and blamed on Iran was carried out."
Guess we'll see what happens re a proposed attack on Iran and whether any link is drawn with these bombings...
Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 814
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:32 am Post Subject:
Get this from that article:
Quote:
"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."
Umm. No actually. He was shot in the head by plain clothes officers who were holding him down. And while it is indeed a tragedy - it's also a bloody disgrace.
I also heard that he didn't respond to police calls to halt etc and that incriminated him even more. Reminds me of a movie I see once where the guy didn't respond because he was deaf. Maybe in this case the guy was running cause he was being chased by what he thought was a mugger and that he doesn't understand english. :cry:
I agree with Melody here "its a bloody disgrace" :!:
Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 814
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:05 pm Post Subject:
I think that with the amount of tension and panic that seems to be going on in the tubes in London at the moment, it would be very easy to get hold of the wrong end of the stick and to start running thinking that something else was going on. I haven't read anything to indicate that the officers declared that they were police. Just shouts of 'get out', 'get down' etc...
Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 814
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:39 pm Post Subject:
Quote:
they didnt want him to survive thats for sure.
Yes, very heavy handed for someone they 'suspected'. I did read another report that said there was some doubt that they were police, but possibly special forces above the authority of the police.
His family has said he "had a multiple-day pass and had no reason to jump the barrier"
There seem to be some conflicting reports as to what happened as well. This article talks about them shooting him in the stomach:
What about people from scorching hot climates who haven't adapted to the British weather? What Brits call hot, someone from Pakistan would call mild.
This had crossed my mind as a reason for his wearing the coat. I remember years ago, when we had a lot of pacific islanders coming to New Zealand at one time, it was a common sight to see them around the place wearing thick coats, jerseys etc on what we considered to be very hot days...
I was reading that the Brazilian Police force are particularly brutal and kill several hundred people a year who resist arest. Probably he was afraid for these reasons. Thats logical me thinking, however I think theres a possibility he was silenced. In fact probably all the people who are planting these bombs have been through some form of mind control.
Caption: Metropolitan Police handout photo shows a CCTV image of (L-R) Hasib Hussain, Germaine Lindsay (dark cap), Mohammed Sidique Khan (light cap) and Shahzad Tanweer, the four suspected London suicide bombers, arriving at Luton train station at 07:21 on July 07
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look at the guy with the white hat... check out his left arm (HIS left arm).... the lower of the rails of the railing is IN FRONT of his left arm...
I was reading that the Brazilian Police force are particularly brutal and kill several hundred people a year who resist arest. Probably he was afraid for these reasons.
Could be.. I understand the police officers were in plain clothes. If a group of plain clothed men were running with guns and telling people to get down/out of the way I can imagine the guy would run for his life! I now hear this morning that he was shot seven times! How many times does one need to be shot in the head to die?
I heard a brief conversation at my work place yesterday. Two guys mentioned the Brazilian and quickly agreed he must of been guilty...he was wearing the thick coat so of course...
Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 814
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:41 am Post Subject:
Carus wrote:
:shock: Good God :!: That photo's jaw dropping.
A little Photoshop magic perhaps? Looks like someone needs to read the manual :oops:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/25/london.tube.0955/index.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm
There are reports of 8 times now - seven times in the head and once in the shoulder. His family are making the point that if they had really been suspicious of him, why did they let him get on a bus? It seemed they waited until he got into the crowded tube station before they restrained him. Had they watched him leave his home (as has been reported) and they were suspicious of his coat, and they were deeply concerned that he had a bomb (as indicated by their final act of supposedly killing him for that reason), why not approach him quickly and by surprise and check him out as soon as he was spotted?
Quote:
Security sources have told the BBC Mr Menezes' visa had expired and he was effectively an "illegal immigrant". Both Mr Straw and Mr Amorim said they believed he was living in the UK legally...
Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.
Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.
BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the type of visa Mr Menezes had been given would normally be valid for one-and-a-half to two years.
He said Mr Menezes had not renewed the visa, adding: "That wouldn't explain why he was shot, but it might provide an explanation as to why he ran away - if that is indeed what he did do."
The chief of police is saying that they are comfortable with their shoot to kill policy and that other people could be shot. Could it be they were looking to make a horrific and terrifying example of someone, in order to further win over public support for hardline tactics?[/quote]
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 140
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:52 am Post Subject:
I have done some brief research to find out what weapon may have been used to kill Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell Tube station.
Remembering that most British Police officers do not routinely carry firearms, the standard firearms issued to British Police authorised to carry them (Armed Response Vehicles) are:
Both weapons use Nato 9 x 19mm parabellum cartridges.
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The 9 mm Luger cartridge combines a flat trajectory with moderate recoil, and fair stopping power. Its main advantages lie in its small size and low use of resources for manufacturing. Its main disadvantages are its tendency to overpenetrate and poor permanent cavitation (hole size), when nonexpanding bullets are used.
It is a good small game cartridge for the handgun hunter.
Because it is inexpensive, easy to manufacture and effective enough for most uses, it has become the most used pistol cartridge in the world.
For police use, it is mainly used with higher speed overpressure (+P) expanding (hollowpoint) bullets to increase both permanent and temporary cavitation, and to reduce overpenetration.
Hmmm... expanding bullets.... aren't they banned by the Geneva Conventions??
Quote:
A hollow point bullet is a bullet that is designed to expand upon entering a target. Unlike a full metal jacket bullet, the jacket metal does not cover the entire bullet and an area near the nose is left uncovered. There is a pit present in the front of the nose (compare to soft point bullet, which has exposed lead but no hollow). When the bullet strikes a soft target, the pressure in the pit forces the ring of lead around it to expand greatly into a mushroom-shape. This causes considerably more soft-tissue damage than had the nose stayed intact. Generally, ideal performance of a hollow point bullet occurs when the bullet expands in a uniform shape, to the full depth of the hollow (or slightly more), and does not fragment or, in the case of jacketed bullets, shed its jacket. By expanding to a uniform diameter and retaining full weight, the bullet can be designed to penetrate to a consistent depth, causing maximum energy transfer to the target with minimum risk of overpenetration.
The Hague Convention prohibits the use of expanding or fragmenting bullets in warfare (often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions), but hollow point bullets are one of the most common types of civilian and police ammunition. In fact, in many jurisdictions it is illegal to hunt game with ammunition that doesn't expand, and many target ranges also forbid full metal jacket ammunition (which is more likely to ricochet).
Ok... not the Geneva Conventions, but the Hague Convention
and...
The Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,
Declares as follows:
Quote:
"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.
It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
However, a 23 September 1985 opinion issued by the United States Judge Advocate General, authored by W. Hays Parks2, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major Hugh R. Overholt, stated:
Quote:
"...expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."
I would imagine that seven, 9mm hollow point bullets, fired point-blank into the head, at a muzzle velocity of 1280 feet per second, would probably subdue the suspect quite effectively.
If there was ever an example of Police "over-kill", this surely has to be it!!!!
Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 814
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:29 pm Post Subject:
July 28th 2005: Jean Charles de Menezes's cousin tells a story we may never hear on mainstream TV news:
Quote:
senior officers at Scotland Yard have retracted claims that the 27-year-old electrician was acting suspiciously...Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said police told her that he was wearing a lightweight denim jacket and not some bulky coat that could have hidden an explosive belt underneath. Detectives also claimed immediately after the shooting that Mr Menezes had refused to heed shouted warnings by armed police and vaulted the ticket barriers at Stockwell Tube station.
Now police say that he used his travelcard to gain access to the station. Ms Figueiredo said: “They are saying he did absolutely nothing wrong when he was killed, so why don’t they say all this publicly.”
